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Tags: Featured
Climbers: Pamela Shanti Pack
Areas: Vedauwoo
The Holy War – Pamela Shanti Pack
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Tags: Featured
Climbers: Pamela Shanti Pack
Areas: Vedauwoo
94 Responses to The Holy War – Pamela Shanti Pack
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Jared: Use to visit this site daily. Miss you Narc! Hope ...
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chris marcolini: Did you ever find the falling block?...
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Nate: The narc lives on, at least as an archive. Miss th...
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Animull89: So gnarly that he did that twice...I remember the ...
A couple of questions:
1) When they are hiking the approach, the rope is present in some scenes and missing in others. Is this some sort of continuity issue?
2) What is that stuff she is spraying on her hands whilst making her tape gloves? Is it Stickum?
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no answer on the rope…that was weird. but the spray is most likely spray on “pre-tape”
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http://www.mountainproject.com/v/home-on-the-range/106530002
Im guessing its this guy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Edl
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http://freshairfortcollins.com/offwidth-master-brad-jackson-on-bob-scarpelli-wide-boyz-being-climbing-trainer/
He seems just as cool and pleasant in the comments section of this blog…
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Maybe it’s just ONE route that she found scary and hard, for whatever reason, and it doesn’t define her or her other accomplishments?
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Its just a climb…bro
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I did some research on the controversy and concluded I really didn’t care. Whats WAY more interesting is that there’s only two escalators in all of WY. Maybe if they made taller buildings, they wouldn’t have to climb smelly bat cracks for fun. Fuck rabies shots.
Check it out, its true. http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/07/the-state-of-wyoming-has-2-escalators/277891/
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There is actually a route at Vedauwoo called “Escalator,” so maybe there are three in the state?
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I did some research into this “controversy” and decided I really don’t care. I did however find out that there’s only two escalators in the whole state of Wyoming! Maybe if they built taller buildings everyone could stop climbing smelly bat cracks.
Its true, check it out: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/07/the-state-of-wyoming-has-2-escalators/277891/
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Is this one of those instances where an low key, average looking, strong dude is sad because a vivacious, sparkly lady who is as or less proficient a climber as he is gets a lot of attention and sponsors, and he wants to make sure everyone knows that she doesn’t deserve it? As if sponsorship and a ‘pro climbing’ ‘career’ were a reward for hard work and not a marketing tool to sell jackets? The details of what she does (to an extent) isn’t the point, which might be offensive to some but you gotta grow up some time. She does what she does, and draws lots of attention to herself and her gear, and that’s the gig. All the integrity and hard fa’s in the world wouldn’t make a generation of crack climbing chicks with bank accounts wear something from carhartt. Point is, you can hate on what she does/says if you want, and be sad that she gets attention that you don’t if you want, but don’t conflate them. She’s fun to watch and listen to, which is far more than anyone is gonna say of mr. justin.
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why is this a climb?? haha, i guess you’ve got to be REALLY into offwidths
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I thought it was a pretty entertaining video, definitely not a climb i would ever want to touch!
Any info on the awesome looking corner to the right of jihad??
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Would you just let it go already? It seems everyone here disagrees with you. Everything you’ve said is a baseless smear campaign from what I can tell. Who really cares? It seems like you’re the only one who’s crying over this.
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You on the meth homie?
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No, her resume is plagued by this kind of thing. PLAGUED! When I climbed with her several years ago, I NEVER ONCE SAW HER do a single climb or boulder problem which was difficult, and I was her main partner at the time, and she supposedly did a dozen or so impressive ascents that season. She always managed to drag some no name person to spot her, who we never met or saw, and she could never those problems or routes. None of the other people we were climbing with saw any of this supposed sendage transpire either. I have heard the exact same story from numerous of her other partners throughout the years. Seems like nothing has changed…
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Again, I would love to see an actual factual argument to back Pam up. How could Bob Scarpelli have onsighted a 14- OW (and Jihad was a worse size for Bob than for Pam) back in 1988 with two big pieces of gear. Bob DEFINITELY does NOT have an integrity issue with climbing what he says he climbs whereas this is NOT the first time Pam has been called out for grade inflation. BUST IT OUT EINSTEINS!
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You realize you are the only one saying .14, right? And that’s just a strawman. -look it up.
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Lastly for now, the fact that I have yet to hear a single fact based argument which supports Pam absolutely destroys her credibility. A fact based argument could have cleared all this up in about a half dozen comments…
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I’m pretty sure the only credibility here that has been destroyed is yours. By acting like a combination of a tin-foil-hat conspiracy theorist, and a prepubescent high schooler you’re attracting all the negative attention towards yourself. And rightfully so. You’re being a complete ass. Also if the above commenter is right about you being Justin Edl, it would make sense because the childish remarks are strikingly similar here http://www.mountainproject.com/v/upper-devils-playground/105972860#a_107748136. Relax man and let the woman do her thing, and you go do you. Just hopefully away from other people.
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Justin,
Simply put you are trying way too hard here and as a result, your have become one of the biggest bores in the history of CL thread commentary. Why? Here’s a just a few reasons . . .
-No one but you really cares about your offwidth grade “issue” and integrity/role model issue but you.
This woman could be Lance Armstrong, Aaron Hernandez, and Justin Bieber all rolled up into one disgusting mass of inhumanity, you could prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt, and still, no. one. would. care (but you)
Mag’s cover such things because mags need something to write about, people here are just passing time commenting when Family Guy re-runs are not on TV, and as mentioned above, it’s horrible to watch people grovel up dirty offwidths and very few climbers “aspire” to climb hard ones.
-You have a compulsive need to post, ad nauseum (hence, the valid “are you on meth” question above).
-You begin some of your replies with rhetorical “LOL’s,” which are akin to a child’s playground taunt.
-You have a sorry need to use the ALL CAPS “shouting” technique. Even with ALL CAPS, no one is listening or really cares
-Oddly, you comment on the climber’s looks favorably, as if this is relevant to the main “issue.” Hmm, got a crush? She’s pretty average looking my friend so cool yer warm jets.
Love,
j
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“As if sponsorship and a ‘pro climbing’ ‘career’ were a reward for hard work and not a marketing tool to sell jackets? The details of what she does (to an extent) isn’t the point, which might be offensive to some but you gotta grow up some time. She does what she does, and draws lots of attention to herself and her gear, and that’s the gig.”
Well put, this hits the nail on the head.
I’d just add that it seems that we American’s have a difficult time with certain aspects of the “industrial sport complex”. Some really talented climbers who do amazing things remain totally unknown. Some average climbers are really good at self-promotion and get more fame and sponsorship than others. There is a degree to which this is just how it goes. But I also find it both disturbing and interesting that in climbing today one’s reputation, and the perceptions of one’s achievements is so heavily dependent on having a video presense on the web and having those videos picked up by websites like this one. Its having an obvious impact on the sport. And yea, obviously the best self-promoters are rarely the best climbers.
Anyway, none of this should be taken as a defense of Justin and what he wrote above, it’s just an aside from an old fart who every now and then longs for the “good olds days” When a climbing hero was someone who had a colorful personality, could drink a beer hanging upside down from his toes, and could do all the boulder problems at the Uberfall, in flip-flops.
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Douglas, I think it would be nice to get back to those days too. I see folks like Pam as being a major obstacle to that, however. How were outright fronters treated back in those days? At any point in climbing? I think climbing, and any athletic/physical pursuit in general, has always had a fundamental key ingredient of integrity, and Pam doesn’t represent that.
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Justin, if you are interested in standing up for integrity more power to you but few people are going to see your public attacks against Pam as having the integrity you speak of. The way to advance the cause of athletic integrity is to be a shining example of it yourself, and to give public attention to athletes who have integrity. I mean look, every week I see athletes and climbing instructors posting videos to the web that endorse obsolete, ineffective, unproven, and potentially dangerous training methods for climbing; I could attack each video and provide detailed critiques of the content of the videos, but even if I am 100% scientifically and pragmatically accurate in my critiques the vast majority of people on the web are goin to say that I am an asshole for pointing out the problems in the videos, and worse they will defend the innuracate information found in the videos, better to let sleeping Dogs lie. All I can really do is learn from others mistakes, quantify why different training methods work, do the best scientific field work that I can and hope that someone notices. Clearly your attacks against Pam have only brought negative attention to yourself. I get it, you are frustrated by a situation that you see as wrong, but it’s not something that you are in a position to fix, and it’s always worth while to play Devil’s advocate with one’s self, are you sure that your perceptions of Pam are correct? Are there other ways to view her climbing and media that you are not seeing? Anyway just some thoughts, worth what you paid for them.
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I like how you made “Dogs” a proper noun, just as you did “Devil” and “Pam”. 🙂
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Douglas, your insistence that my “personal attacks” against Pam only hurt my own credibility is a bit misguided IMO. I point out valid facts for why people shouldn’t take Pam seriously. That in no way has anything to do with my own credibility, unless of course you think what I have said isn’t true. In which case you should point out the things I have said that are false and be done with it. Do you wish to distract from that or something? Go ahead, call me out. Show me the uncut footage. Or tell me my facts are wrong, or that there is a more believable interpretation of them. Bring some reason into the side of those who are sticking up for Pam. Otherwise perhaps your own credibility is at stake…
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Justin I think you misunderstand what I am saying. As with the example I mentioned regarding training videos, it does not matter if your facts are accurate or not, I don’t think I could have been more clear on that. What matters is that pointed individual criticism in the public sphere will always be considered bad form (except in politics), and it’s a quick way to get on peoples bad sides, further many people are going to think that the person who makes such pointed criticisms has an axe to grind, or motives that are less than pure.
Think of it in terms of the community. Standing up for integrety is a good thing, it’s good to make the case that we should honestly represent our own achievements and the achievements of others in climbing videos, but the way we advocate for these things matters a great deal. I’m sorry if you think that I am saying something else.
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As far as credibility goes, that is always delineated by the FACTS, no matter what anyone says. If you say that someones credibility is at stake simply for calling B.S. for what it is, I do wonder what you are trying to say or do here…
In science, no one says that one scientists jealousy of anothers discovery invalidates his scientifically justified results for why the first scientist results were wrong. Instead, the raw science is examined, and the truth comes out. Suggesting it’s otherwise is ridiculous, and suggesting we should have a different standard here is equally ridiculous.
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So, since you did not provide any factual input but instead decided to ad hominen me further, I’m going to go ahead and point out that YOUR credibility really IS at stake here now…
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I think you’re missing the point here. No one here seems to be convinced by your “valid facts”. I for one believe that you’re just desperate for attention and pissing in the wind.
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Jon, which ones don’t people apparently believe? That she said in the video it was her hardest to date? That Scarpelli called it 11+, which she also said in the video? That Scarpelli couldn’t have climbed the 1988 world standard of 14- on an obscure style in the middle of nowhere? (granted, this is my argument based on my personal verification of Bob having not climbed any harder than about 13-, but do you disbelieve it?) Are your right now trying to ad hominen me? Nice form of reasoning, idiot.
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Your arguments would hold a lot more weight if you refrained from the ad hominem attacks yourself.
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This is certainly something I think about quite a bit as I figure out what to post. Generally speaking, those who do a better job of making it known what they are doing whether it’s via a blog post, facebook, instagram or whatever stand a better chance of crossing my radar than people who simply go about their business in a quiet way. What to do about it, I’m not sure, but it is something I spend at least a little time considering.
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Narc, in addition you also have your own well formed ideas about what is worth posting, right? To stick with the training example for a moment, if I wrote a blog post that provided a detailed analysis concerning why campus training isn’t so effective, or a video about the best way to stretch the forearms you wouldn’t post such things here right? They might provide good information, but such things would not be considered news, and I guarantee they would not be entertaining at all. The items you post are selected for their mass appeal or because they are news worthy in the way you personally define that idea right? In case anyone misunderstands my tone here, these questions aren’t aggressive, this site is curated by one individual so the question is to what degree can we read the site’s content as reflecting that individual’s sensibilities, and understandings.
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That’s a very fair way of describing things
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Narc, lets be clear. We are not talking about someone seeking out attention where others are not, and getting more despite being not as good as someone else. We are talking about someone blatantly lying about their accomplishments.
Better to handle the “not as good as promoting” topic with another example of climbers, such as two equally skilled climbers, one who does a lot of self promotion, and one who doesn’t. A good example doesn’t come to mind off hand.
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13+? really?
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Doug, Cabbage, etc.,
Wow. Really? What people say about how hard it is to wiggle up some fissure in Wyoming matters to you? Will this grade determine whether or not you attempt this climb? People posting climbing videos raises your blood pressure because youtube wasn’t around in the days of Layton Kor?
Just speaking for myself here. I have a lot of problems in my personal life I’d like to fix and way too many of the realities of the modern world really trouble me. That said, even as a climber for many years, thoughts of people (purportedly) inflating grades, self promotion via climbing videos, and awesome climbers not appreciated are pretty much the last thing(s) that will ever keep me awake at night. I’m sorry, but this is all such a non-issue. I would like to find it all laughable if I just find any humor in any of this pointless banter. The method of character attack by some participants in this thread is rather pathetic, and that’s all that really should be said.
j
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J,
I doubt this stuff keeps any of us up at night, and I doubt anyone’s priorities would put the vagaries of Wyoming fissure wiggling above the real problems in the world today; but this is the interweb, and this is the Narc, so such discussions are not out of character or out of place.
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Agreed Doug. It’s fun to blather on about esoteric climbing topics here on CN, especially because people here are commonly thoughtful and well spoken. Probably because of this fact, I found the repeated hammering of the same snooze-inducing and rather spiteful point in this thread mind-numbing and out of place. But of course, no one is forcing me to read and/or participate . . .
j
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I’m stealing the phrase “Wyoming fissure wiggling.” That made reading the whole thread worth it.
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Totally agree, we need similar phrases to describe all aspects climbing.
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“Colorado Choss Wrangling”
“California Slab Greasing”
“Kentucky Jug Tugging”
“Alabama Sloper Squeezing”
“Oregon Pimple Pinching”
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If you doubt credibility, climb the route and verify it. It’s really the only way you’re going to convince anyone of anything. Climb her routes and suggest fair, honest grades.
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Anyone have any links referring to what Justin is ranting about? I’m curious as to why one man is so worked up.
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Lastly, I love how my credibility is apparently at stake despite the fact that none of my arguments were attacked. Classic ad hominen attack right there, and a classicly invalid form of reasoning/arguing…
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Your writing style is reflective of an adolescent who recently attended their first debate club practice and subsequently brought there “game” to the internet.
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Also, my credibility is apparently at stake for doing nothing more than saying a climbing media “darling” is a liar, and backing this claim up with an interpretation of the facts which were presented by said media “darling” herself.
Wow!
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Justin
Why don’t you go and get on the climb? I will belay you, and we can have someone else video tape it… Lets see what you think?
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It wouldn’t matter what I think. It would have no effect on the facts that:
a)she said in the video it was her hardest to date.
b)Bob called it 11+.
c)Bob was/is a sandbagger, sometimes off by about a full number grade or so.
d)Bobs hardest climbs top out right around 13- in reality.
e)Bob has said this one may be one of his hardest.
f)Pams other hard sends include a supposed 13 c/d R bolted OW, thus her saying Jihad is harder implies Jihad is at least solid 13+ if not 14- or harder?
g)Suggesting Bob climbed the 1988 world standard of 14- is ridiculous given the above facts. Nonetheless, this is what Pam would have to be claiming to keep a consistent narrative with her past accomplishments.
I actually resent the fact that for me to go repeat a bunch of rad pitches I either have to more or less use those ascents as some sort of validation of Pam being full of shit (thats what calling them by their real grades would be), or else use them to validate what I already know is a bunch of bullshit (thats what climbing them and not saying anything about the grade would be, and I guess either one would likely be at least somewhat profitable to someone.) It couldn’t just be going and climbing a rad pitch, it would have to carry that extra crap. At some point though, they will just be rad pitches sitting there to be climbed, and climbing them can just mean you got up a rad pitch. Thus when OW climbing gets back to being itself, I will be back up there enjoying those awesome and kinesthetic (IMO) pitches. Until then, I will enjoy the climbing I am currently up to, thanks 🙂
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Justin,
I’m in the minority. I see the genius in your argument, which is both logically valid and sound.
1. If Justin says it, it is true
2. Justin says Pam doesn’t play fair
Thus,
Pam doesn’t play fair
The truth of the premises entails the truth of the conclusion. P1 is true because you, unlike Pam, has established yourself as a person of INTEGRITY. You assert P2 because of all this evidence you have dutifully compiled, some personal experience, and additional deductive reasoning.
However, I think it is time.
It is now time to seek an experienced, psychology practitioner to help you work through your inability to simply enjoy climbing without being stymied by thoughts of the route’s sordid history.
Truly, my friend, it could get even worse. Currently, it’s only select routes that Pam ruined for you by all the LIES and lacks of INTEGRITY, next it could be all OW’s, then rock climbing as a whole! Scary stuff.
After all, for any route, one can never be 100% certain that Pam has not either climbed it and LIED about the grade, not climbed it but LIED and said she did, or cast her Witchy spell on all those who dare tread there. Her reach is far indeed.
Recovery won’t be easy and it will take time. Be patient, yet diligent. You will need an arsenal of weapons in your psychological toolkit to move forward with confidence and strength
Stay strong my friend,
j
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No one is responding to your argument because it is a terrible argument. It is only relevant to the grade of this climb, nothing else she has ever done, and she barely mentions the grade in the video. She laughingly refers to it as “5.11d(+)/5.13+.” That is called symmetry. It is a cute way of saying that it feels damn hard for the grade. On her blog she calls it 11d multiple times, never calls it 13+ and says nothing but nice things about Bob Scarpelli. There is no reason to think that she is seriously suggesting “5.14- onsight back in 88 with 2 pieces of gear blah blah blah.” That is your invention to support your previously held position. Don’t try to come back with “she says it might be the hardest thing she has done in Vedauwoo.”
As to her lying about ascents: no idea. If that is the case, I hope that an honest person will come forward and corroborate what you are saying. You may be telling the truth, but your crude and disingenuous “argument” has cost you the opportunity of ever being trusted, or even taken seriously, on anything related to this issue.
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This. A thousand times, this.
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Amen
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Just to set the record straight, I am NOT to be blamed for any of Pam’s actions. Pam was not wearing me for ANY of these purported ascents!
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I, however, am to be blamed.
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Fear not justin. Your legacy on CN will certainly live on for a long time. In the form of jokes and ridicule whenever someone is immature, bullheaded and simpleminded.
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Two little questions out of curiosity, staying far away from the topic of credibility, difficulty or blandering abowe.
Why is there an boltet anchor when the crack goes all the way upp the face?
Did the first acend end here aswell?
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The bolted anchor is also shared with SS Mayfair, the neigboring route. Knowing scarpelli, the first ascent topped out with poor/nonexistent anchors; see other Scarpelli routes like “Tripmaster Monkey” (5.12), The Spins (5.11b), and many other “classics” for prime examples of routes with no anchors. Trust me, it sucks to not have anchors…
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weird…right around the 5 minute marker you see a pre-placed piece of gear magically get a draw attached…but then she strains like hell afterwards to even clip the extended draw…
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Justin…is that you?
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speaking of preplaced gear…
One thing I’ve been wondering about:
Lots of folks were up in arms about the ‘Wideboyz’ doing CC on preplaced gear, but according to their blog the next hardest OW in the US at the time was one of Pam’s routes (and she got a Golden piton for?) and it was done on preplaced gear(and bolts) Curious about the apparent double standard?
“Pamela Pack were the recipients of the Golden Piton award a couple of years back for trad climbing and in some ways I was a little confused when I found half the route’s gear to be bolts – perhaps it’s a sport/trad hybrid??!”
“We did the route in the same style as the first ascentionist with the gear already in place from our working attempts.”
link: http://wideboyz.blogspot.com/2011/10/week-of-wide-madness.html
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Some climbers think that pre-inspection via rappel is still “onsight” or minimum “flash” (mostly British climbers). I’m not sure what you are pointing at (pink/red/mauve/brown?) but my common advice would be that you climb in the purest of styles yourself.
That is: Barefoot, naked, onsight, free solo,( ideally with a watermelon tied around your waist and in the dark.) Best of luck with the Wyoming fissure wrangling under these strict ethical conditions
Only then will YOUR ascents be PURE.
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Obviously this route is hard, but I swear it doesn’t look as hard as she makes out. Other than getting over the tight squeeze
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This is a prime example of how CN should be more like.
What was the video about? Not sure, didnt quite watch it.
But i bet the comment section touched far more than they even dared to think about touching in the video.
Hmm.. think ill be gone fore more.. touchier videos on other sites now;)
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People who self-promote by grade inflating and lying should be called out. Sponsors should be critical of their athletes so they don’t get away with lying or skewing the facts to look better than they truly are. I’ve seen it happen. In context of all the amazing climbing now and in history, it’s nauseating when I see it. I think Justin is right to open some peoples eyes to this occasional conspiracy in the media.
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… like how Jimmy Webb is crushing down the 8C inflation.
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Actually, this was an old project tried by many hard Vedauwoo climbers throughout the years, including by many of the folks who onsighted Lucille. In fact, a couple of the guys who onsighted Lucille (and called it 5.12) spent several days trying this thing to no avail, not even putting together the moves, and no it wasn’t a size thing because that thing is a horrible size for anyone without giant fists, and not even Scarpelli could do it. Granted it’s a boulder, but it’s a highball with the overall crux pulling the final lip, and it’s as long as any other hard wide crack at Vedauwoo: http://www.mountainproject.com/v/the-stone-cold-stunna/107682618 I also put up Oddball at that same dome, which was as hard or harder for me than Eight Ounces To Freedom, which shuts down everyone except the really strong folks and people who can chicken wing it, which makes it a full number grade or so easier. Bouldering just isn’t as “cool” as route climbing, especially to trad climbers, and some people generally prefer to just keep their mouths mostly shut…
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I might add, when someone talks so much shit about you in your local community that you can’t get a belay on anything lest that person be accused of becoming your “belay bitch” for your “stardom”, despite the fact that on any given day you belay that person on a two to one or three to one ratio in terms of time spent at each others climbs, you take whatever ascents you can get…
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You’re still here?? You take the word obstinate to a whole new level
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I’m pretty sure Justin could climb that thing if he hasn’t already. The thing is we do need climbers of high caliber to keep these ratings real even if you don’t like a pretty girl’s dramatic film brought down to size. And there should be no such thing as “modern” 13’s. Or “modern” anything. How can we compare over the years if the references keep changing. There have been plenty of super hardmen and women over the years past and nothing new is being created here.
BTW, I can’t climb it.
Arne
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He’s baaAck! (and ornery as ever!)
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“As to her lying about ascents: no idea. If that is the case, I hope that an honest person will come forward and corroborate what you are saying. You may be telling the truth, but your crude and disingenuous “argument” has cost you the opportunity of ever being trusted, or even taken seriously, on anything related to this issue.”
I am honest and can attest to what Justin is saying. Gabriel was a fixed fiasco resulting in an un-deserved award (comparing the competition in that category). I won’t bore anyone with details, but the ascent was highly tainted and over-emphasized for style.
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Bore me. Did she lie about any ascents, or just put bolts on something that probably should have been just gear? I believe you, but character assassinations such as what’s occurring in this comment sections should have a high burden of proof.
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