In the wake of yesterday’s news of the closure of Roadside at the Red River Gorge many people took to Facebook and message boards to register their displeasure with the news. Emotions ranged from disappointment over not being able to climb there anymore to displeasure with the people who “caused” the closure. The problem with the latter thought is that while it is convenient to blame a closure like this on a few bad actors, the reality is that everyone that has visited Roadside over the years, myself included, has contributed to the problem. In clarifying their concerns one of Roadside’s owners says as much in this post on RedRiverClimbing.com:
Just to be clear, the problems at Roadside are not permadraws. It is greater than that. Roadside is simply a crag in a 80+ acre nature preserve. It has been loved to death by over use. It continues to deteriorate. Want to see Roadside 20 years ago? Stroll over to Andromeda Strain – there are ferns, vibrant green moss, old growth trees – it is fabulous. Remember, Roadside is in the Graining Fork Nature Preserve. This is intended to be a special place for years to come. Instead it has become an outdoor climbing gym.
“Outdoor climbing gyms” is an apt description for a lot of the areas in the Red these days with many featuring permadraws that actually make the walls look like, well, a climbing gym. Even without permadraws Roadside has always felt like an outdoor gym to me, especially with the addition of several easy climbs continually attracting huge groups to the crag over the years. In some sense I find it surprising that the owners of Roadside are even surprised with what they’re seeing.
Of course the problems at Roadside are not unique to the Red River Gorge nor are the reactions. Similar situations play out at areas across the country. If the problem is dogs at a crag dog owners insist that it’s everyone else’s dog that is the problem. If there are specific rules regarding gaining access to an area many people act as if the rules only apply to everyone else. If the problem is too many people climbing at a crag or behaving poorly when doing so then we insist that it’s those other people who are causing the problem and so on.
And it’s this last problem that is really the crux of the issue. There are simply more people climbing today than ever before, and in popular internationally known destinations like the Red River Gorge the crags are really not able to withstand the onslaught of people. Closing one crag simply moves the crowds to the next available area, and while self-policing ourselves is obviously the best option it is oftentimes easier said than done.
Figuring out what to do about these types of problems remains something for people smarter than me to figure out, but I think it’s important for people to remember that even with the best of intentions our simple presence at a crag is leaving at least some impact no matter where we are, who we are or what we are doing.
I think one of the big problems, that occurs at many areas, is the LACK of willingness to hike and climb off the beaten track. I’ve been to the RRG, I’ve climbed with a ton of other people at Roadside, but I’ve also been to cliffs and seen NO ONE.
This is also very true in regards to Indian Creek. Supercrack, Donneley and Battle of the Bulge are being loved to death. The new parking lot and bathrooms help decrease some of the impact but encourage the crowds. On a weekend where the is a 5 deep line on Supercrack I’ve had a crag all to myself elsewhere.
So beyond just taking care of impact take some time and explore. Yes Ro Shampo is cool but there are many other climbs just as fun and classic elsewhere at the Red. The same goes for 5.10s. They may not be as concentrated but imagine how many pitches you could do if you don’t wait around for another lap on AWOL…
SPREAD OUT!
– Luke
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A thoughtful post. The real problem with the Roadside closure is that the same conditions which led to the closure exist at basically every other crag at the Red. So while there are different owners of other parcels, this closure should be a concern.
Luke makes a good point above. As another climber who likes to trounce around less crowded crags, I rely on those high traffic crags to be the magnet to attract the crowds away from the outer crags. I love it that more than half the Indian Creek traffic is at Supercrack, donnelly and BoB. Some crags just have to be ‘sacrificed’ to the crowds to preserve others. The closure will just add more climber pressure to other crags.
The good news (I think) is that because the Red is in a rainforest(!!!) a few months of no foot traffic should go a long way towards some revegitation, unlike the desert.
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Yeah the situation is in full effect pretty much everywhere. Ideally people would just spread out or go to more far flung areas, but the reality is that much of the crowding centers on the crags with high concentration of easy routes, generally 5.10 and under. Since there really aren’t a ton of routes in that grade through the RRG people get concentrated at a place like Bruise Brothers in Muir Valley or the slab at Roadside. Unfortunately I don’t think a couple month break would do much good since a) most of roadside sees no rain and b) the erosion damage is fairly severe
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As much as the hueco system sucks, maybe something like that is a better option than full closure.
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The problem with that idea at somewhere like the RRG is that areas are spread out and are owned by different people/govt. agencies. A closure or restrictions at one place just push people to the next available free-for-all area.
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The phenomenon Narc is describing, where its always someone else at fault, should be recognized by any who has studied a little econ as a “tragedy of the commons” scenario. It plays out the same way for overfishing or over-using a park, or even over-using fossil fuels.Typically, the way to solve this problem is for someone or some institution to take charge and somehow limit use to the ‘socially optimum’ level. Here’s how it could play out for the future of climbing destinations:
-Corporations own the land and limit use by charging money (like a ski resort, expensive, but can you imagine how long a lift line would be if it was free to ski?)
-Non-profit or government institution limit use with a lottery system (like rafting on the grand canyon)
-Non-profit or government instituion limit use with a first-come-first serve system (like staying at Yosemite’s camp 4, have you ever seen so many climbers lining up at 7AM?)
Personally, i don’t think paying to go climbing is so far-fetched since we pay to go to a gym. And if its not ‘worth it’ to hike to another spot, then you could pay the fee.
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The ideaof the “tragedy of the commons” is a pertinent one here. The main problem is that many climbers do not see the commons as actually common to all but in fact a a kind of temporarily private possession where they are free to do as they like. A real commons is closely supervised by its visitors/users and infractions are treated very seriously. With an increase in out-of-town visitors and a lack of self-policing, the commons is replaced by something else, a kind of no-man’s-land. Then the calls for transfers to private ownership or tighter land management are heard. The solution is for climbers to recognize the real impacts all their actions have and to consistently focus on how to limit them. Everything matters in this regard and no detail is too small, especially as numbers rise.
I wonder, speaking of analogies, whether permadraws could be similar to the “broken-window syndrome” where it was theorized that the presence of graffiti and broken windows encouraged crime. Do permadraws encourage careless climber behavior?
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The whole permadraw situation is quite the double-edged sword. The reason they have become so prevalent at the Red is because people were leaving regular draws up on routes because either the route is super popular, it’s ridiculously hard to clean or both. This was becoming a safety issue as evidenced by someone taking a groundfall at a crag after a sharp “fixed” draw sliced their rope. In theory you would just ban fixed draws altogether but people are so used to leaving equipment on routes that it’s impossible to police…so I guess the answer was just to start installing draws everywhere. I certainly appreciate the convenience of it but…
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Routes aren’t hard to clean, Narc. They’re hard to clean while lowering, but just fine to back-climb and clean. So ultimately the permadraw thing is laziness and a huge eyesore.
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The whole permadraw situation is quite the double-edged sword. The reason they have become so prevalent at the Red is because people were leaving regular draws up on routes because either the route is super popular, it’s ridiculously hard to clean or both. This was becoming a safety issue as evidenced by someone taking a groundfall at a crag after a sharp “fixed” draw sliced their rope. In theory you would just ban fixed draws altogether but people are so used to leaving equipment on routes that it’s impossible to police…so I guess the answer was just to start installing draws everywhere. I certainly appreciate the convenience of it but…
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turn it into highball bouldering (kidding). or trad when possible. cant believe there were ever permadraws in the first place. boooo.
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To narc (and all other website/magazine people)
It great to red stories about friends sending their projects at the chocolate factory. It’s great to read about stories in CO about the great bouldering. But I think we see that it is the duty to those who run sites like this to do a balance of access issues. I recently read over at jamie site that people are very unhappy with the popularization of bouldering areas and how there are now groups of people, trash, pad stashing, etc. Now we have just lost roadside.
Please do not confuse me blaming you at ALL. What I’m saying is that when there is a week where folks are not sending projects please write about the importance of climbing ethics (not trad vs sport but not being a douche bag), access issues which is very difficult for us in the south, leaving dogs at home, not blasting music at the crag when other are around, etc. I love the red, and have seen a terrible progression of more and more people that don’t know the first thing about nature or respect crowding the areas, or even how to belay!! I don’t go to roadside and have not for a very VERY long time because I hate crowds. I’m a nervous person who just can’t enjoy climbing (most of the time) when I get around people with bad vibe.
Again this is the progression that has occurred in surfing and now because of the increased popularity of gym climbing and comps will only continue to get worse in the climbing community. Again I don’t blame you, matt, low down, rock and ice, etc for causing these issues but these kids come to these websites for climbing information. IF all we do is tell them about climbing hard then that all they consider to be important. This is similar to what has occured in martial arts as well. The farther we get from the original masters that moved to america to teach the looser the training ethics has become and the money (in many instances) have overshadowed the important things.
I remember when you first teamed up with pci that they were going to be doing things to futher the community….well this would be a great place to start. Since you are now involoved with the pro crowd you should be able to get them doing video talking about how to behave, access, etc. I’m sure there are many people out there willing to write a few pages about issues each week.
You guys are profiting off climbing via ad revenue, so you need to continue to guide new folks in the right direction.
I truly hope that something good can come out of roadside closing, but it’s not the first crag we’ve lost, and I fear that it will not be the last.
Thank you
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Good post. I saw that Endoville or wherever vid, and read the comments on B3. A problem is that everyone just has to roll so deep. Gotta have 10 dudes, 3 cameras and 12 blogs to go bouldering these days. And we get the same deal at tightly bolted moderate sport areas, 5 rad dudes and their 5 girlfriends on their big weekend out from college. The latest rad trend I’ve seen is babies at the crag.
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This is a great idea that I will definitely be giving some thought.
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To expand on Painful’s post, the problem is more than just a massive influx of climbers. Really, it comes down to respect for others, and we all know that the bigger the crowds, the more disrespectful and imposing others can be. Let the list (rant) begin.
If you play music that can be heard by anyone not in your party, you’re a douche. If you show up with 10 people, total douche. Worse yet, put top ropes on 5 lines and make others wait for your group to finish while you’re not climbing on them, you suck and you’re a douche. Seriously – “have you done this climb yet, Pete?” How annoying.
Bring your dog to the crag? Your baby? No one wants them there. It’s not a lie – no one cares that you own a Bernese Mountain dog and that your baby will one day be climbing harder than Sharma. A baby doesn’t belong under cliffs, even bullet-proof sandstone, and your dog is a massive disruption to both other climbers and the local environment. Get a sitter, leave Lassie at home.
No one likes to see huge crowds at climbing areas. But we’re all in this together, and if you need music, need your child with you, want to roll with your entire climbing clubs’ team, don’t go outside. Go to the gym, since you’ll get the experience you desire there, while not imposing on anyone else’s climbing time.
I agree with Painful, that with the expansion of climbing, it’s time climbing media (hopefully Narc and PCI) starts putting emphasis on how to behave with decency and consideration for other climbers, as well as how to maintain access to great crags like Roadside. (no music, small groups, one climb at a time, no babies and no dogs).
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The PCI? Please. The PCI is interested in getting more ‘exposure’ for climbing to help the sport ‘grow’ and become ‘mainstream’.
It should be obvious that they are interested it getting more money in the sport so they can make real salaries for being rad climbers. More money will only come with more people, more big climbing events which encourage huge groups rolling deep, etc.
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Yes, that’s exactly what we need to solve this solution, a bunch of homeless people, leaving in vans telling us how to be stewards. Do you have any idea how many of these perma draws are left behind from pros? Look up at the wall and gaz upon the bounty of Petzl and BD sponsor draws.
Blaming the media is just lame. This is no different from politicians blaming the liberal media. Mags and ad driven sites are going to post content that sells. Period. Now-a-days people dont care about someone getting rad on some 5.7 in the Sierras, they wanna see some prepubescent teenager onsight a 14c or watch a someone from Boulder send a v13 shirtless, while waring a beene. Tastes change. If the old guard doesnt provide it, it will escape into the blogosphere (gawd i just puked writing that word).
Plain and simple truth is that people are inconsiderate a$$holes. IF you get enough of them together this is bound to happen. The last thing I want is to pay for a crag mommy to tell me how to behave. Have you been to Hueco since the closure? Terrible. I climb at one of the busiest crags in the country. We have non of these problems. Why you might ask? well, when something happens we dont sit by ideally and allow it to happen. Spot litter? Tell the asshole to pick it up. Unruly dogs? tied up or huge fine. Rouge trails? no way. We got signs for that shiz and trail systems that make sense. Boom boxes? Tossed in the river. Perma draws? Hell yeah, but we maintain them vs flipping the biner over. Liability averted. Dangerous gumby belayers? We step up and lend a hand. Human waste all over the place? No, we built modern facilities. What does this cost? $25 bucks annually. We dont just tuck tail and visit vacant crags (tho there ‘s plenty of options for that)
.02
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I feel ya spray lord.
I don’t live in KY but use to make regular weekly visits for many years. Again I just don’t like crowds because it brings down my experience. I’m the type of guy who loves to boulder alone 3 miles in a gorge by myself. Many of the folks that I know that crank do not like to do so in front of large groups of people. If so you live in boulder and work at the spot (sorry could not resist). I have no issue telling some douche bag cleaning up and picking up trash, but it is out of control of the locals at this point. Otherwise the red multiple crags would not have been closed. I can promise you that some of the boys at the red have no problem telling folks how it is. It’s just a hope that people who love the sport and have a voice will use it. Whether people will listen or not is another thing, but at least they can know that they’ve tried to balance out the publicity they give some of these amazing spots with some attempt at direction on how to behave. Otherwise the south is going to lose a lot of climbing spots in the coming years.
And about PCI I agree that they are most likely not going to step up but if we call them on it then it might help. Kids look up to these pros they see on vids so it might change some folks minds if they hear folks talking about issues.
We gotta set examples.
Oh yeah I use to want to bump music at the crags and a friend explained that it was ok when folks are not around, but can be considered rude. Lesson learned and I pass it along
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I’d be curious to know the name of this busy crag you speak of
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Great discussion so far. I appreciate the quality and candor of the comments that this site tends to evoke from people. My impression regarding these access issues is that the media and climibng role-models can always do more to disseminate information about ethics and stewardship. Hopefully this will help galvanize climbers into doing more when they’re at their favorite crags to ensure the sustainability of the resource and foster an ongoing respect and concern for access issues. That being said, as such a climber I know I can do more in this regard as well. I think in the future I will plan to spend a few extra minutes at the beginning and end of my climbing day to pick up litter or clean tick marks, etc, and perhaps try to find a better way to confront people who are causing problems that will not be considered antagonistic. It seems like any form of criticism is taken very harshly in the climbing world and I don’t really understand why that is… but hopefully with the right words we can make a difference in the habits of others…
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Wow I think I was able to climb at Roadside the day before it was closed. Sad.
I am probably going to receive a lot of disagreements, but I feel climbing areas should be pay per use, ala Stone Fort in Soddy Daisy, TN. I think that will go a long way in regulating the usage and climbers will have greater incentive to respect the area due to the threat of closure or price increase.
Most climbers (myself included) receive much more from private land owners, route boulters, national parks, trail managers then we give. Its amazing to me that some were able to live at Camp 4 for free all at the expense of the tax payer.
Not sure if this relates but it reminds me of a No Reservations episode. The host, Anthony Bourdain, decides to buy out a whole restaurant in Haiti and give it to starving Haitians. Very noble in theory, but what resulted was mass hysteria. People in line for food were fighting and beating each other for the food.
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The Access Fund is in touch with the Red River Gorge Climbers Coalition and has reached out to the landowners to discuss the situation. We ask that people please respect the closure until further notice.
For more information on “tread lightly” best practices for climbers, visit: www.accessfund.org/treadlightly
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To prevent corporate or govt interference: True locals need to “localize.” The hardcore regulars need to posse up, determine an unwritten, informal ethic, and vibe every single person that comes through their crag–let visitors know that they are only visitors, and they need to prove themselves with good behavoir (and maybe some strong climbing) if they don’t want sand in their gas tank or a black eye. In cases like this, violence almost never happens. It’s reserved for only the most offensive “douche bags.”
Localism can suck if you’re not a local; but if you’re considerate, humbly find your niche in the pecking order, and play your hardest, locals will be nice–and there’s no better audience than a bunch of supportive locals. Most importantly, the place will remain preserved, as-is, for generations.
This has been the only means of preservation in the surf world. Lunada Bay, CA; La Jolla, CA; Santa Cruz, CA; Ft. Worth, FL; Salina Cruz, MX,; all of Hawaii…these places are HEAVILY localized, and they’re the only top-knotch waves you can surf anymore without being overrun by kooks.
No dogs. No iPods. No babies. No trash. No spray. No big groups. Stay on trail. Keep your voices down. When it gets too crowded, locals will vibe the douches back to their campsites or less trafficked areas. You step out of line, you get one silent warning. Then you get a broken face. And you flee in shame. Crag stays open and preserved for decades. End of story.
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To prevent corporate or govt interference: True locals need to “localize.” The hardcore regulars need to posse up, determine an unwritten, informal ethic, and vibe every single person that comes through their crag–let visitors know that they are only visitors, and they need to prove themselves with good behavoir (and maybe some strong climbing) if they don’t want sand in their gas tank or a black eye. In cases like this, violence almost never happens. It’s reserved for only the most offensive “douche bags.”
Localism can suck if you’re not a local; but if you’re considerate, humbly find your niche in the pecking order, and play your hardest, locals will be nice–and there’s no better audience than a bunch of supportive locals. Most importantly, the place will remain preserved, as-is, for generations.
This has been the only means of preservation in the surf world. Lunada Bay, CA; La Jolla, CA; Santa Cruz, CA; Ft. Worth, FL; Salina Cruz, MX,; all of Hawaii…these places are HEAVILY localized, and they’re the only top-knotch waves you can surf anymore without being overrun by kooks.
No dogs. No iPods. No babies. No trash. No spray. No big groups. Stay on trail. Keep your voices down. When it gets too crowded, locals will vibe the douches back to their campsites or less trafficked areas. You step out of line, you get one silent warning. Then you get a broken face. And you flee in shame. Crag stays open and preserved for decades. End of story.
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I don’t see why threats of violence or a “pecking order” are necessary. Sounds ugly.
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Wow dude, you’re like frickin hardcore! I’ll keep trying to be as cool as you.
Everyone on here has done all things things they say others shouldn’t do: the groups, the dogs, the permadraws, just being a climber. get off your high horses and just admit it is entropy and human nature to fcuk nature up. the only solution is top-down management.
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Entropy…? That sounds pretty cool. It probably also has to do with the Heisenberg uncertainty principle too and, like, ions and shit.
I don’t see how “the only solution is top-down management” follows from “it is… human nature to fcuk nature up.” Explain?
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Actually g unit, I have about 10 or so people that I regularly climb with. Never has there been more than 4 of us, never has anyone even thought about bringing a boom box or bringing their dog (everyone has one except me). And I would be willing to bet I am far from the only one.
I’ve also NEVER seen a radio or a large group at any place I regularly climb in the Northeast. Not once. So much for entropy.
You’re view is the exact problem we have. Everyone is doing it, so I might as well too, right? De-evolution isn’t a given, and it doesn’t have to be. People emulate those at the “top” in everything from athletics to academia. If we had more people like Sonnie Trotter, and more importantly, a push from Rock and Ice, Climbing, and other media and top athletes on these issues, then all of a sudden people with stereo’s go from being the cool kids at the crag to the posers.
I don’t want “top-down management” where admission tickets are required, and I don’t want climbing to turn into surfing, where a “chill” sport turns into alley brawls over territory.
What I and so many others want, is for people to simply realize that access and enjoyment are threatened by the acts of others, beyond just waiting to hop on a climb. A major push from media and top athletes on “how to not be a douche” would go a long way, in my opinion.
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Actually g unit, I have about 10 or so people that I regularly climb with. Never has there been more than 4 of us, never has anyone even thought about bringing a boom box or bringing their dog (everyone has one except me). And I would be willing to bet I am far from the only one.
I’ve also NEVER seen a radio or a large group at any place I regularly climb in the Northeast. Not once. So much for entropy.
You’re view is the exact problem we have. Everyone is doing it, so I might as well too, right? De-evolution isn’t a given, and it doesn’t have to be. People emulate those at the “top” in everything from athletics to academia. If we had more people like Sonnie Trotter, and more importantly, a push from Rock and Ice, Climbing, and other media and top athletes on these issues, then all of a sudden people with stereo’s go from being the cool kids at the crag to the posers.
I don’t want “top-down management” where admission tickets are required, and I don’t want climbing to turn into surfing, where a “chill” sport turns into alley brawls over territory.
What I and so many others want, is for people to simply realize that access and enjoyment are threatened by the acts of others, beyond just waiting to hop on a climb. A major push from media and top athletes on “how to not be a douche” would go a long way, in my opinion.
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i think we can all agree sport climbing is gay. but not as much as surfing. fuck that hippie bullshit. trad, or highball bitches.
peace
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Gay? Nothing gay about bouldering. I like touching other guys. Again, I find myself to be so less cool and edgey than others in here.
By top down management I mean that climbers are not going regulate themselves. You can see it on this thread. Douches have to try to one-up the radness, pureness, sickness of others. They are the same ones that blast music at.the crag because it is beneath them. It is the opposite of consensus or community building. Access fund is a good idea.
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wow, homophobic insults are a great way to have your point taken seriously.
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I was responding sarcastically to a post that has since been deleted. i’m not homophobic; i prefer spotting girls.
spro1, your ‘i never do it or see at my crag therefore not my issue’ mentality isn’t helping. i live 4 hours from hueco and haven’t been years. i despise the policies, but with the growth of bouldering, i see the point now. the truth is that the trend of overcrowding is increasing at the large areas. if your scene regulates itself, for now, that’s great, but policies need to be put in place for destination areas.
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i was also replying to that post, hence it was not indented under yours.
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I’m not cool, and I don’t like violence. I’m also not edgey or tough. I’m a quiet, skinny bookworm who loves playing hard outdoors and who prefers the outdoors to remain, well, outdoorsy.
Also, I’m not a “local” at any of the places I surf or climb. However, I greatly appreciate what localism has done to preserve many areas. Localism relies on “vibing” people into considerate behavior. Respect the place. Respect the caretakers. Respect the people around you. Then you–the visitor, the one who is not long-term invested in the maintenance of the place–get respect. Localized places are the most orderly and peaceful places to surf.
Often the reputation/fear of brawling far exceeds the truth of it, so violence is rarely ever used. I’ve seen the violence of localism only a few times, and each time involved a simple punch to the face of people who were begging for it. The “victims” had plenty of opportunities to avoid the confrontation, but they egged on the situation. Truly douchey people.
Here’s why localsim will be necessary in the near future: climbing is undergoing a change that happened in surfing in the early-to-mid 90s. When Alex Honnold is on the cover of NatGeo and the Continental Air in-flight magazine, you know something is afoot. The explosion of media attention and the investment of outside money is irrevocably changing the world of climbing. If TNF, Black Diamond, Patagonia, Five Ten, et al ever go public, hedge funds and investment firms will start buying in. These non-climbing entities will start having a controlling interest to maximize profites for their shareholders–with no regard for the soul and history of climbing. Sanuk has just bought their way in. Nike 6.0 is just around the corner. Within 10 years, climbing (ALL the magazines, videos, and most internet forums) will be mediated by corporate, non-climbing, non-local interests. If you think climbing is getting too popular now, just wait a few more years. Take your current biggest weekend crowd and quadruple it: 200+ people at your crag with iPods, pit bulls, babies, permadraws (everybody’s doing it, right?), 2 hr long lines for every local “classic,” groups of 10 burly douchebags going about a 4 hr toprope sessions on their 11a project spraying loud the whole time…welcome to the near-future of climbing. TRUST ME. In this future, “top down management” will mean that local landowners sell their parcels to corporate interests, who will turn YOUR local crag into an outdoor gym. JUST WAIT. Somebody should interview Randy Leavitt abou this; I’m sure he knows. The ghost of Surfing haunts surfing now. Climbing has just been diagnosed.
Or, LOCAL interests can take control and at least maintain the life of their local lifestyle and crag.
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For what it’s worth Black Diamond already went public so one of your
dominoes has already fallen…
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Wow, Narc.
WAY off topic, but:
Did a little research: apparently Black Diamond Equipment is part of the military industrial complex now: http://research.tdameritrade.com/public/stocks/news/story.asp?docKey=100-145p6408-1
Their “Advanced Technologies” wing makes computer-integrated body suits for our soldiers in Operation Enduring Freedom.
How’s that for violence? Would’ve never suspected that Adam Ondra was a cash cow for funding the corporate role in international warfare, but alas….
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Localismo,
You make some interesting points but I don’t know if the idea of Localism works when visitors outnumber locals 25:1
Before I get into that though, BD Advanced Technologies has nothing to do with Black Diamond Equipment. They are owned by RMT Inc. and make computers. They just happened to be called Black Diamond as well.
Now, “Localism” – don’t get me wrong, I love locals – I lived in Ohio for many years and ended up at the New and Red several times a year, and always the Red for spring break where I spent St. Patty’s in the basement at Miguel’s moshing with the “Locals”. Still, the idea that the locals can control the size of the mobs that can make it down to the Red every summer is insane. Yes, there are some tough folk out there in KY, but its tough to be present at Roadside, Military Wall, Left Flank, Long Wall and Bruise Brothers, every day, being a hardass with an attitude. It’s just not realistic for the sheer number of climbers at the Red.
I agree that the problem is that way more people are climbing today than before, and as more people get into it, the seclusion we dream of obtaining when we head out is going to be a thing of the past. It’s like Yosemite today vs. the days of John Muir. It has gone from being an organic, tightly knit community, to being dominated by gym climbers in the 5.10 and below range. Inevitably these folks are going to want to experience the real thing and none of us can blame them for that – it’s open to the public and belongs to them as much as Yvon Chouinard and Sonnie Trotter after all.
Roadside is probably the ultimate crag I’ve ever been to. It’s got ultra classics like Ro and Chris Snyder, the 5.10 wall with a bunch of 4 and 5 star routes, as well as the beginner wall for the absolute beginner, or for a good rest day. The approach is about 5 minutes, so the result is that every single person who climbs, with the exception of the 2-3% that climbs above 5.12, wants to climb there. It is just way too good and way too accessible. Not to mention the magic at Miguel’s every night.
Still, I think we’re seeing symptoms of a problem and ignoring the real problem which begins way earlier, at the gym. Experienced climbers can be too stand offish to offer unsolicited advice, or for beginners to approach, and so bad habits are learned in the gym and then repeated and reinforced outside, resulting in situations like these. Someone needs to take beginners under their wing way before they ever get outside and impart the ethics of climbing outside – boomboxes are not a part of nature, dogs are awesome and may be your best friend but they are a pain to have at a crag and should not be taken there out of respect for others. That is the keyword, Respect. Respect for others, respect for the owners, and most of all respect for nature.
I really don’t believe that the vast majority of people act obnoxiously intentionally – its usually just ignorance – ignorance that experienced climbers can easily dispel before it results in situations like this. There was the girl at Military Wall who dropped her climber on a dog, killing it last year. Why? – wrong Gri-Gri belay technique (coincidentally their group also had a boombox). How come no one noticed before she managed to make it outside and correct it? I’m sure she had spent time in a gym around experienced climbers and belayers before.
We’re a community – and while it’s awesome most of the time, it’s also highly necessary to take on the responsibility of being elders in the community and teach the newcomers how to become better ‘Climbers’. The kind of ‘Climbers’ Chouinard and Rick Weber (the owner of Muir Valley who has opened his private land to climbers) are – the ones that may not send as hard as a 14 year old, but embody the world of climbing so much more. None of us knew these things inherently – someone taught us too. Now it’s our turn and responsibility to give back to the climbing community. If we don’t take on this responsibility, we will see many more areas closing down, or becoming like Torrent Falls, perhaps even permanently.
It’s simple, when you see someone doing something wrong, don’t just do the easy thing and call the person a gumby or douche under your breath. Assume it’s their first or second time climbing outside a gym, and they were never told what the right way to do things was. Approach them with a smile and polite words of advice. In return, they will respect you, as well as our community, and will also learn how to fully enjoy the experience. Its a win-win for them, us and the future of the world we love. And it build respect in their eyes for the crags, the community and the environment. Finally, who knows, we might learn something from them too.
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Everyone that I know who I consider to be a stand up person in the community hardly ever go to popular climbing gyms (or climbing spots). I agree that I guess it is their duty to show others but does not that come across a little condescending.
Picture it that you’ve just met a person in the morning warming up at roadside before taking off elsewhere. How do you in a short time (without offending them) explain that they should split their group in half, turn off their music, get rid of the dogs, pick up trash, all while not pissing them off and ruining their day.
If I were being told this I’m sure I would not listen at all.
As far as localism. Try going out to surf at banyans (big island). You have the potential to get your ass beaten unless you impress some locals quickly. Granted this is an extreme example but I promise your better off getting permission. This is the last things that we need to see come about in the climbing community, but hell we’ve had fights at crags in the red over taking to long to get on a route!!!
It is things like these that have caused many stand up folks to go out of their way, hike many more miles, to remove themselves from these issues and just enjoy nature, crushing, and spending time with the special friends that we’ve got.
Interesting discussion going on here, but I promise that this will all be forgotten by most within the week.
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VPar,
I like your vision the best. It is enlightened and egalitarian. I hope this is what will happen.
Although it works, localism can be ugly. But it does work. It works because when a local tells someone to split up their group, turn down/off their boombox, or take their dog home, the local has the authority and the faculty to make it happen. Primitive, but functional.
Still, your way is the better way. I’d like to see some “authority figures” in the climbing community draw up some cragging ethics, then see the pros, Access Fund, and the mags really push it. That way there’d be a general consensus of how we got about climbing at the local crags, and most of us–the conscientious ones–can go about spreading the climbing aloha with the support of each other.
It all sounds very idealistic and utopian. And having never seen this kind of thing at work, ever, I’m too much the cynic….
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Again guys, I agree that folks can take things the wrong way, and especially in your example – Painful – when the group from hell is there, it can be very difficult and perhaps then its too late to win that battle that day. Still, at the gym that group climbs at, if the idea of ethics is explained to the members of this group before they ever set out, there is a greater chance of seeing a much more thoughtful generation of new climbers.
Also, I feel like localism as you define it works and works well. But the reason I don’t think it’s a viable option at the Red is that visitors outnumber locals overwhelmingly. Also, many other forms of motivation exist other than violence. And anyways, would anyone honestly want to see the genteel and always smiling Rick Weber brandishing a stick at climbers in Muir Valley, or see common threats of violence at Miguel’s instead of the warm welcomes we’ve always gotten.
I know that I wouldn’t – instead I would love to see this conversation of ethics be had at the end of the day around the campfire. Maybe some more visible signs at Miguel’s (not just the one by the tree before you walk into the shop that everyone ignores) explaining that, something like an appeal from Sharma with his picture to draw attention, or the following excerpt out of BD’s 2009 Climbing Catalog which had a great impact on me at least (terribly sorry about the long post):
If climbers really want to preserve
and protect Indian Creek and all the
magnificent spires and splitters of the desert
southwest, the solution is simple: stay at
home, leave the desert alone. An extreme solution,
perhaps, but the desert southwest is an
extremely fragile ecosystem that cannot handle
masses of climbers trampling and abusing it as
though it’s a sandstone climbing gym. It’s time
we took a long hard look at how we are ruining
our own experience and agree to change our
ways—either that or just stay home and leave
the desert in peace.
These changes need to go beyond the
expected respect of the desert environment that
climbers for the most part already understand
and appreciate (e.g., picking up trash, avoiding
cryptobiotic soil, using a wag bag for waste, staying
on established trails, camping consciously,
and not having raging biker fires, shooting guns,
or ATVing or 4x4ing). We need to focus on
climbing consciously in the desert to ensure the
incredible experience we so cherish is preserved
for the generations of climbers to come. Where
to start? Here are seven simple suggestions:
• Limit group numbers—No one is stoked when
a crew of 12 rolls up and floods the crag. Take
your spring break posse to Cancun.
• Deal with your dog—If Fido can’t behave at
the cliff (e.g, barking, digging, fighting, eating
people’s food, etc.), leave the pooch at home.
• Deal with yourself—If you can’t behave at the
cliff (e.g., throwing wobblers, being a jerk, fighting,
eating other people’s food), stay at home.
• No power toproping—Enjoy the route and
then move on. Toprope siegeing a route so you
can session it to death or run three warm-up
laps on it is rude to everyone else who may like
to lead it.
• No yard sales—At the base of a route, keep
your gear organized and out of other climbers’
way.
• Tick fever—Yes, the Creek is like sport climbing
on cracks, but bullet ticking jams or faceholds
is extremely poor style (yes, even worse
than taping to fit or wearing rubber-backed
Hand Jammies).
• Avoid the rat’s nest—If anchor slings are worn
and faded, cut out and replace the tat rather
than create a dangerous and unsightly cluster
by merely adding more webbing into the mix.
see original here: http://web3.bdel.com/pdf/BD_S09_CLIMB_USA.pdf
Like you guys pointed out earlier, it’s getting bad in the summers now, but it will continue to get worse as we see climbing becoming more and more popular. I maintain that it’s too large a problem to be solved without instilling that change in beginners internally. We can’t police every area and neither should we need to.
I’m not saying I have the answer or that there is only one way – I just think that if these problems are cropping up, maybe it’s time we try to address them by engaging the people causing these problems instead of excluding them. Like it or not, if they are wearing a harness and carrying a rope – to the outside world – they are one of us and their actions damage our community’s reputation and access – Roadside is closed for all climbers, not just for “gumbys”. So it is in our best interest to show them how to do this the right way by educating them – not adding “hooligan” to words that describe us by threatening or engaging in violence which will only create greater access problems in the future and hurt the ability of the RRGCC and Access Fund to negotiate these matters.
This is a good start though – Narc runs one of the most popular climbing blogs around and im sure plenty of beginners will come across his posts and some of our comments.
Crush hard and be safe out there guys, just also think about our responsibilities to the newcomers of our community.
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Long post yes, but one of the best in the string. If we’re a community we need to act like it. Teach people proper behavior and to love the environment that allows us to have this sport. It’s our responsibility to police ourselves before the powers at be take our climbing ‘rights’ away.
In my local crag, I have been known to pull people anchors and teach them the right way. I’ve removed batteries from boom boxes when they can’t seem to turn them down. I’ve leashed people dogs, and I’ve asked people to move. And I’ve moved when others are out of control. I’ve explained to people that their behaviors are destroying the reason many of us come out, and damaging the image of climbers to the public. The times that I have stood up for our local laws, I’ve been thanked (verbally and/or nonverbally) by other locals and it’s been worth it.
At the same time, I’ve left a rope up and walked to a different climb. I tell people who want to top rope to hope on my rope if they’d like and if they want to lead, pull it and I’ll take it back. I’ve brought my dog (yet to bring the kid), he’s always leashed and just wants to lay in the shade. I’ve spread my gear out at the bottom. And I’ve taken large groups however I take them to the non prime areas.
Fortunately and unfortunately, I teach the sport. When I lead groups there are a strict set of rules regarding first safety, second RESPECT for others, their experience and the environment in which we play. If my students CHOOSE not to climb by those rules, they are gone, no second chance.
Bottom line, remember the newbies don’t WANT to destroy the place or the community. They want in. They just don’t know the secret handshake.
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“Roadside is simply a crag [purchased as part of an] 80+ acre nature preserve.”
the goal of which, according to the owner’s website, was to “ensure future access to the great climbing there”. It should go without saying that a closure does a pretty piss poor job of maintaining access.
intention fail.
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Obviously unknown to you is the fact that Natural Bridge State park and cabin developers were both actively thirsting over the Roadside area back in 2002/2003. One attorney had already tried to unravel the extremely complex network of owners (heirs) to the roadside area and he failed (he was not a real estate practitioner). Through diligent work spanning nearly two years I was able to piece this tract of land together and buy it up before the state park or cabin developers got to it. The legal fees alone in doing this would have been extremely cost prohibitive – I did all this work on my own time. The state park would absolutely close all access to Roadside to climbing, just as it did with Pocket Wall. The cabin builders would do likewise. My legal work and John and my $$$$ are what enabled you to climb at Roadside for the past several years and it still costs us a significant amount of money every year. We have never received nor asked anyone for one penny. So, contrary to your uninformed post, we most certainly have preserved climbing at Roadside, even in light of this closure. We will reopen it, but under a different operational paradigm than the laissez faire system now in place. We have invested many thousands of dollars so you can climb at Roadside. Unfortunately, it has become a trashed out area that defeats the overall intent of preserving it. Without our intervention it would only become worse and that is absolutely unacceptable to John and I, and it should be for everyone who visits there.
Peace,
Grant Stephens, Co-Owner
Roadside
Graining Fork Nature Preserve, LLC
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