I originally ran this post very early last year when very few people were visiting this site. I wanted to revisit this topic to give people a chance to weigh in and take the new poll at the bottom of the post. Besides, other than arguing about grades, what is better than arguing about dabbing?
I would like to take a moment to discuss an uncomfortable subject for me. Not injuries, not impulsive behavior, not even climbing obsession. No, I am talking about the dreaded dab. There are a lot of ways that one can incur a dab when bouldering. Some dabs are rather egregious: hitting a pad with your foot, your spotter getting a bit too aggressive with their spotting, kicking your spotter in the face, or hitting a nearby object like a tree or a rock. Some dabs are more subtle than others: topping out using your knee or your shirt brushing against something are a couple of examples. Yet all dabs have the same result: you need to back that ass up and think about “re-sending” the problem in proper style. In other words, you dab you die.
Now in some cases it is incredibly hard to avoid dabbing. I can think of a few examples of these types of problems that remind me more of Fred Flinstone than Fred Nicole. On the Gadget problems at HP40, the crux is to not let your legs swing out and hit the adjacent boulder. At the Enter the Dragon boulder at the Sads in Bishop, the fact that the problem is in a 4 foot tall cave surrounded by boulders on all sides basically makes not dabbing the crux provided you are strong enough to pull the V10 moves. The problem Perfectly Shrimp (or thereabouts) at the Buttermilks in Bishop is the perfect example of an ass-dragging dab-a-thon that makes you question what the hell you are doing bouldering in the first place.
However the more subtle dab of topping out with your knee is something that could happen on any problem with a difficult topout. It is usually entirely avoidable, but you could also make an argument that using your knee is perfectly acceptable in other climbing situations so why not when topping out. This sort of dab is much less clear cut in its consequences.
With this said, I don’t pretend to be a purist when it comes to doing things in perfect style, and I certainly haven’t 100% adhered to the Dab and Die ethic. I myself am a big fan of doing things the easiest way possible, however the dab can really complicate a proper send. If the dab is severe like a tree stopping my momentum I will most definitely drop off. If this happens to you and your spotters don’t immediately make you come down in shame you probably need a new climbing crew. If I dabbed by doing the dreaded knee scum topout this is more of a gray area. While embarrassing and sometimes painful, it is less clear cut what to do in this situation. Usually if my spotters don’t give me a hard time I feel like I probably got over, and I run to the nearest computer so that I can update my 8a spraysheet before they say otherwise…
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Great post. I think we would all agree that dabbing is a central component of modern bouldering. For starters, on problems like HP40’s Inspect Her Gadget, dab potential ensures that our mutant fingered friends with no core development will have to watch someone else send. Similarly, dabs also allow us a passive-aggressive outlet to crush weary friends in mid-celebration: “dude, save the celebration for when you REALLY send”. But dabbing isn’t all about inflating and deflating egos, it also forces climbers to hone their sense of ground/rock proximity: a key component of walking. Finally, and most importantly, dabs are what truly define the ethics of a boulderer. Personally I don’t count any send under 7,000 feet because I consider the atmospheric density of low altitude problems a “full body dab”. While I recognize this is a bit strict, I also believe it exemplifies a divine no-dab ethos. Because at the end of the day we all have to look ourselves in the mirror and come to grips with our dabbiness. And who amongst us really wants to be a “tree dabs count” person?
Tommy “knee scums are legit” Wilson
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Ha, I like that. I think all climbs under 1000 feet should count though because living at low altitude is mentally depressing.
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I say a knee dab is when your knee hits the ground — not the top of the boulder. Topping out with your knee may be less stylish but is not invalid — it’s like shaking a lot when sending a problem — not the most stylish but that still counts.
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I agree with narc. IT completely depends on the severity of the Dab. I Dont think using your knee is un-called for, I just think its bad style, even though I have done it my self
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knee scums and belly flops are part and parcel of poorly executed but totally legit sends. dabs on the other hand reduce the difficulty of the climb by removing weight from sissy arms and/or stopping heinous swings. if knee scums are in the same category as dabs then so is training, weight loss, tendon strength, chalk, shoes, awesome ‘brah’ hair, etc..
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Agreed.
Something I am guilty of but I think it is more of a sportsmanship dab:
The practice of sitting back and sucking beta from your friends and then flashing problems on the backs of their work.
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I think its crazy to say that using your knee on a top out is dabbing but I am interested in where the line is for gear. I have recently seen Dave Graham wearing a knee pad….a little borderline???
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If kneebars are legit on a boulder problem, and wearing a sticky-rubber kneepad is acceptable (really though, leave the kneepad at Rifle and do some real rock grappeling)) why would using your knee anywhere else on a climb not be? Insanity! Bottom line is, if you are satisfied with the style in which you sent, what does it matter?
Interesting observation: in Best of the West someone is calld out for dabbing on glas roof, after which Tim Kemple explains that the dab is cheating. Elsewhere in the film Sharm clearly dabs on the first move of Full Monty and no one says a word. Is there a conspiracy here? At what grade does one need to climb to be above the dab callout?
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I agree on separating style considerations from true dabs. That seems fair enough. The use of knees and knee pads in specific is not something I have much practice with but I can see why people do it…namely it works.
I think you need to be able to climb hard enough to justify having a feature length climbing film made about your climbing and then it doesn’t matter what you do.
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We use sticky-rubber shoes, sticky-rubber kneepads are pretty much the same thing.
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yeah, i’m with tony. if i dab i will almost always finish the problem (at least to the jugs, if there are some) then drop off. it’s like doing a problem offing a couple moves. good practice, but completely illegit.
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im in agreement – knee scumming, or belly-flopping over a topout is not exactly the height of sending-in-style, but i say it still counts (cuz i’d have to go back and strike out half of my hardest sends to date).
dragging your feet in the dirt on a tricky cross-over, on the other hand deserves to be shouted down as INVALID by your crew until you drop off.
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I know of an interesting situation where a strong climber “sent” a well known hard problem with a dab. Other climbers called him out that day, and he tried to repeat it, twice, both times failing to do the problems with out a dab. Then he left and ran home to put it one his scorecard.
As I often say, there is only one rule in rock climbing, “the ground is OFF”
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How scandalous. Obviously you are not going to say who it is but it would be very interesting to find out.
Maybe there should be a post on scandalous scorecards containing invalid ascents and banned problems…
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JE – paul on Echale? dab fo sho
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those rubber kneepads, where are they from? did climbers import them from some other discipline?
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The longer I climb, the more I become a fan of the “Lee Payne” mentality. Basically, it says do what you want to do and be honest about it. If you don’t like where a problem starts, start different, but be honest about where you started. A similar mentality goes for dabs and drop offs.
I think it is different if you are at the top of the sport and are receiving money based on your achievements. Perhaps it is also different if you have a scorecard.
There are three problems on my scorecard on which I have dabbed. Two of the comments directly say dab and the third says something about poor form.
I do not feel bad at all about having those problems on my scorecard, but I can see how others would think that I haven’t done the problems.
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I agree that if you are making money off of your accomplishments then it is more important to be honest in what you have on your spraysheet. That is why I think people were taking issue with some of Paul’s time descriptions of his sends even though the difference to him was immaterial.
I too have problems on my spraysheet that were the result of minor dabs which I have noted. For me it often doesn’t seem like there is enough time or energy to justify re-climbing certain problems simply to correct very minor dabs. If all I did was climb then that might be a different story.
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The pros need a lesson in proper style. The number of knees used during topouts during final Saturday night was astounding.
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I think style is subject to a fruitless debate among your fellow crew. If you are at the top the the sport, there needs to be consistency so pulling a V10 is the same for everyone.
At the higher levels your group of fellow climbers changes, your group of fellow climbers becomes the greater climbing community. I think at that point it really matters.
Well unless you are a cheap cheating SOB, like who ever put “first accent” on this video…http://climbingnarc.com/2008/10/reach-out-and-touch-someone
Thanks, CN love the site.
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I think all this talk condemning knee scums is kinda some girly shit honestly. You top out your V4 or V12 project and lay down a cascade knee to get over the top, you obviously sent. No one would consider that being a void send, anywhere. If there is a place like that, I am condemning it for being contrived and flexing its nuts too hard.
My take on dabbing is that honesty is key, and its situation dependent. If you are climbing with strong respected members of the climbing community, and on the way down from controlling a swing he gets a little kick (not affecting your climbing) I would personally say that IS a complete send. Clean? No, but its sent and you get all the props for it except “the style points.” Dabbing on the ground where you kick dirt up or scrape audibly along a pad on the ground invalidates sends in my book, as well as using a tree or off rock. The gray area in my opinion is say a bad landing or spotter error in which a climber grazes a pad off the ground in a way which if anything could only hinder his progress. In times like those I think its to be judged by the witnesses and the climber himself being ethical. If you are getting paid, then there are higher standards. If you are climbing your hardest project, there again are higher standards. If you are just climbing trying to get classics and get strong, and you climbed it to the top without ASSISTANCE in any way shape or form you can move on and find some new movements.
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Why on earth would tossing a knee down on a top out be considered illegitimate? Because it’s bad style? more like just “style”, everyone climbs differently. If the argument is that it makes the move easier that’s ridiculous. In any other situiation using any part of your body differently to make a move easier would be considered smart, but here it’s enough to invalidate a send? doesn’t make sense to me. This being said I wouldn’t toss a knee down because I think it looks ugly/ungraceful/unsmooth, but if i did, I would still consider my self to have climbed it. I started at the bottom and moved my self to the top using only the rock. I’d call that rock climbing
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Knee scums are bad style. C’mon son! 😉
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Bad style? -probably. Still climbing? -definitely.
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